Posts by Cold Steel

38

You Found Out You're In A Cult Of Lies, What Are Your Options Do I Stay In Or Do I Leave?

by frankiespeakin in

that is a question only you can answer.

there is no right or wrong answers unless you are steeped in black and white thinking.. some choose to stay in for family reasons, some are so heated up over being decieved they can't give them another minute of time or labor.

meeting are a tedious and tremendous bore once you see the man behind the curtain(wizzard of oz).

Cold Steel

There are many considerations. My first reaction would be to put it in my rear view mirror and get away from it. If you have a family which is intent on staying in the Organization, it gets complicated. If it comes down to staying with or leaving your family, I would explain your lack of belief to your husband or wife; then, depending on how that goes, make your decision. If it means losing your family, I would stay with the Organization. I would cut my attendance to meetings to the bare minimum and not come out in open rebellion. To me, my family would be the deciding factor.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

Cold Steel

Kepler: The NT certainly is about eternal life, but there are mixed signals about its nature. Yet in Mark 12:18 and onward, Sadducees confront Jesus about what is supposed to happen in the afterlife, the afterlife in which, according to Josephus, the Sadducees do not believe. Jesus replies that they “do not understand the scriptures or the power of God. For when they rise from the dead, men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven.”

Your best bet for ascertaining what the ancient Christians believed about the afterlife can perhaps be found with more accuracy through Christian writings which once were considered scriptural by some Christian sects, but not others. Relying on Josephus’ explanation of what the Jews, which were in a high state of apostasy, believed most likely is not pertinent to what the Christians believed.

Your point in Mark 12:18 is significant given the Sadducees didn’t believe in an afterlife or a resurrection. So why were they asking Jesus a question based on something they did not believe in? Simple. They were asking a question based on something the Christians believed. It would be like an atheist asking a Jehovah's Witness a question about the 144,000. They don’t believe in the 144,000, but the Jehovah's Witnesses do. So also in this case the Sadducees sought to entrap Jesus in a Christian belief in a resurrection and even a concept of marriage throughout the eternities.

Jesus answered them truly, saying that in the resurrection there is no marriage or giving in marriage, a reference to the act of becoming engaged or married which, he tells the Sadducees, cannot happen once a person is resurrected. (Though there is no denial of marriage before the resurrection.)

There is significant evidence that the ancient Christians believed not only that man would live beyond his life on Earth, but that he existed before birth in a premortal existence, which to some extent determines the nature of our existence in this life. For example, the disciples asked Jesus regarding a man blind from birth. “Master,” they said. “Who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind.”

Jesus, nonplussed by the question, did not issue a rebuke or a correction in doctrine. He simply said, “Neither this man nor his parents have sinned, but that the works of God might be manifest through him.” If the doctrinal assumption was incorrect, we might expect Jesus to correct them, like saying, “You do not understand the scriptures....” But no correction was forthcoming. After all, the Lord had declared to Jeremiah, “ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ” (Jeremiah 1:5) The act of ordination is not merely a reference to fate; it was a holy act secured by the laying on of hands and conferred authority and a calling. And Jeremiah was told he had been ordained before he came to the earth.

Some of the early writings of the first generation of church fathers also point the way to ancient Christian beliefs. One of these fathers was Origen, who stated: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.”

One scholar notes:

In Origen’s universe there are more exalted beings who leave the less exalted beings further and further behind. He compares their advancements to a series of examinations and makes much of the three degrees of glory—“three celestial levels, like the sun, the moon, and the stars.” According to him, the visible world is only a small fraction of the invisible world, which in turn is only a small fraction of the potential world that is to become reality in the aeons ahead. In Origen’s universe there are more exalted beings who leave the less exalted beings further and further behind. He compares their advancements to a series of examinations and makes much of the three degrees of glory—“three celestial levels, like the sun, the moon, and the stars.” According to him, the visible world is only a small fraction of the invisible world, which in turn is only a small fraction of the potential world that is to become reality in the aeons ahead.

The notion of a premortal existence also is found in an increasing number of near death experiences, where people report meeting people in the spirit world which they knew before they came to the earth and, in some cases, lived hundreds if not a thousand or more years before the present.

John, in the book of Revelation, also encounters an angel whose brightness and glory are so intense that John falls on his face to worship him, thinking that he is his Lord. But the angel raises him up and tells him he is but a “fellowservant and of his brethren, the prophets.” In other words, the angel was simply a former prophet, now raised in glory and light. If so, it would clearly indicate that people don’t just fall asleep until awakened by Jehovah.

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

DeWandelaar:Now in “Smith’s” case it does not prove anything... IF he had the golden plates however that would have given everyone a sort of proof that at least the plates existed (although even that would not give a proof of divine interaction since everyone who has golden plates can make a bogus language only HE can read).

What many people forget in this debate is, one, anyone can receive affirmation from God regarding his truths (James 1:5-7), and two, those who accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and covenant with him, are the beneficiaries of those covenants, not GOD. By accepting heirship, one becomes a joint heir with Jesus Christ, receiving all that the Father has. So it’s a distinct benefit (and this is a gross understatement), and a supreme act of love, to receive such blessings. Many atheists and critics seem to think that they’d be doing the Lord a favor by accepting him and the ransom for their sins, Jesus Christ.

That said, let me iterate the fact that God has no interest in providing proof of his existence in spectacular displays of miraculous wonder. That said, miracles follow them that believe. One of our early apostles, Elder Parley Pratt, tells this story:

As the meeting closed a man named William Cory stepped forward, and earnestly begged of me to go home with him and minister to his wife, as she was lying at the point of death in consequence of a lingering sickness, not having risen up in her bed for six days without swooning or going into fits. He further said that he was worn out by being up with her every night, and that his neighbors were weary with watching, and it was doubted whether she could survive through the night without relief.
The Spirit would not suffer me to go with him that night, but I promised to call in the morning. At this many voices were heard, saying: “Yes, yes, there’s a case in hand; let him heal her and we’ll all believe.” Others exclaimed: “I wonder if she’ll be at his meeting tomorrow! We shall see, and if so, we’ll all believe.” Expressions like these, joined with my own weakness, only tended to dampen my courage and confidence in the case.
I went home with a friend who invited me to partake of his hospitality for the night. As we entered his house, we found one of his children very sick with a violent pain in the head, to which it had been subject from its birth, and which came at regular periods, and was never relieved till it gathered and broke at his ear-so said his parents. The little fellow was rolling from side to side in his bed, and screeching and screaming with pain. I stepped to the bedside, and laid my hands upon his head in the name of Jesus Christ; he was instantly made whole and went to sleep. Next morning he got up well, and continued so; he said that the pain all left him as soon as my hands touched his head.
In the morning, before I arose, I had a vision, as follows: I saw a log house, and entered it through a door at the northwest corner; in the northeast corner lay a woman sick in bed; in the southeast corner was a small door opening into an adjoining room, and near it a stairway, where stood a ladder; the fireplace being in the south end. As I entered the house and laid my hands on the woman, she rose up and was made whole; the house being crowded, she took her seat near the fire and under the ladder, or near by it, and she praised God with a shout of glory, clapping her hands for joy, and exclaimed: “Thank God, I’m every whit whole.” I awoke from my vision and related the same to the family where I stayed.
The man harnessed his horses, and with seven or eight persons in the wagon, including myself, we started for meeting, intending to call and see Mrs. Cory on our way, as I had appointed the previous evening. On alighting at her house I saw it was the same that I had seen in the vision; there were the doors, the stairway, ladder, fireplace, bed, and sick woman, just as I had seen and described.
I laid my hands upon the woman, and said: “In the name of Jesus Christ, be thou made whole this instant.” I then commanded her to arise and walk. Her husband burst into tears; the people looked surprised; but the woman arose and walked to the fire, and happened to take her seat near the ladder, as I had related in the vision before I saw her. She then clapped her hands for joy, gave a shout of “Glory to God in the highest,” and testified that she was every whit whole. We invited her to accompany us to the meeting; she immediately made ready, walked out, helped herself into the wagon, and rode some two miles over a very rough road. She then got out of the wagon, and walked with a strong and quick step into the meeting, where she sat till the discourse was over; when she arose and testified what the Lord had done for her. She then rode home, and was baptized in connection with several others, who came forward and obeyed the fulness of the gospel. We afterwards laid our hands on them for the gift of the Holy Ghost, when it fell upon them in great power, insomuch that all in the room felt its power and influence and glorified God; some spake in tongues, others prophesied and bore testimony to the truth.
The next evening I went over to Sackett’s Harbor in order to preach; many of the people from Pillar Point, who had witnessed these things, went with me, and, among others, Mr. Cory with his wife, who had been so miraculously healed. A great rabble came out to hear, or rather to disturb the meeting; and among others, some half dozen clergymen of different orders, who were loud in their challenges and calls for miracles; “give us a miracle—we want a miracle—heal the sick, raise the dead, and then we’ll believe!” The lying, rage, and confusion excited by these wicked spirits, broke up the meeting, and I had much ado to get out of the crowd without being stoned or torn to pieces. (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pgs. 90-92)

When he was younger, Pratt was troubled by the state of Christianity in his day. He, like the OP of this thread, wondered why God had ceased speaking to man 2,000 years ago. To him, it not only was important that baptism was performed correctly, but that those administering it should be called of God. He eventually was impressed by Alexander Campbell and Sidney Rigdon, the founders of the churches of Christ, but he was troubled by the fact that Campbell claimed neither revelation nor the ministerial authority to baptize. Later, both he and Rigdon joined the LDS church and led away a significant portion of Campbell’s church, which infuriated Campbell. Campbell also claimed that the days of apostles and prophets had ended long ago, and that healings and other spiritual gifts were a thing of the past.

The moral of the story, above, is that the influence of skeptics and unbelievers can have a negative effect on the faith of believers. Many early elders wrote that attempts to heal were often thwarted by the unbelief and ridicule of onlookers. Pratt traveled many thousands of miles on foot, once in a blinding snow storm—his only food a frozen piece of bread which hunger compelled him to gnaw on. He preached and healed throughout his journeys and essentially did what the ancient apostles did.

Regarding the gold plates, there were a number of reasons they were intended to remain hidden. First, Joseph Smith was only allowed to translate the first third; the rest were sealed and intended to come forth at a later time, perhaps in the Millennium. Second, even if he produced “the record” as his family referred to it, it still would not prove the integrity of his translation. They would merely be artifacts and, reason three, expensive ones at that. Recall that the record was found on property not his own, and chances are the land owner would have most likely laid claim to it. Even with no one other than Smith seeing it, there were vagabonds and thieves who were trying to get the record by force. Except for the intervention of the Lord and Smith’s immense strength, they almost succeeded. Finally, the Lord has no particular desire to “prove” his works to unbelievers.

In situations like the one Elder Parley Pratt described, above, you’d think many of those curiosity seekers—ones who knew of Mrs. Cory’s experience—would have all stepped forward to join the church, but only a few did. The curiosity seekers and skeptics seemed nowhere to be found. At this point it’s important to point out that neither Pratt nor any of our other elders have, at any time, leaned on miracles as proof of the gospel’s authority.

LDS authority James Talmage writes: “The exercise of these powers...ordinarily termed miracles, is by no means an infallible proof of divine authority; for some true prophets have wrought no such wonders, so far as records show, and men have been known to work miracles at the instigation of evil spirits.” Nevertheless, he added, the possession of the power in the working of miracles is an “essential characteristic of the Church,” and when such things are wrought in the accomplishment of holy purposes they serve as “confirmatory evidence of divine authority.”

If God were to reveal himself through incontrovertible miracles, without the converting power of the Spirit, men would be obligated to obey or face the dreadful power of heavenly judgments. Such miracles also don’t have the staying power of influence wrought by the Spirit. In the Book of Mormon, miracles in the new world accompanying the birth of Christ scared the skeptics silly, because they knew they had been prophesied. Over the years, however, they grew complacent and became convinced they had simply witnessed anomalies of nature, an idea the prophets laid directly at the feet of the Adversary. As the date of Christ’s prophesied death and resurrection approached, many of these same skeptics planned an all out attack on the church. But before they were able to put their plans in effect, a great storm of darkness moved in over the land and there were lightnings and thundering. Then the fabric of nature seemed to give way as earthquakes and volcanic activity began to destroy the wicked from the face of the land. Cities were sunk into the earth and tsunamis destroyed coastal areas. Then, three days later, on the first day of the week, it all stopped, and the Book of Mormon then records the visitation of the “God of Israel,” Jesus Christ.

The enemies of the church who just days earlier were planning an onslaught against the church and its leaders were gone. The miracles three decades earlier had not carried them through this cataclysmic event. The wicked were dead and their bodies were carried away in their cities which were now buried, swept out to sea, or burned. Had the miracles stuck with them, they would have been converted and been at the temple to welcome the Messiah. So miracles don’t work. Many in the early LDS church witnessed numerous miracles, yet fell away.

All I ever hear from religious people is a whole lot of stories but you need to know that they who make a claim have the “proof of burden.”

“Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.”

“The necessity of proof is incumbent upon the
person who makes the claims.”

Well, as I said, we need not prove anything, though if you were willing to put the time into it, we could provide you and anyone else with compelling evidence. But evidence and proofare two very different things.

One question I’ll put to you guys is, what kind of proof would you be happy with? What would it take to convert you and cause you to dedicate the rest of your life to living and proclaiming the gospel. (And I don’t mean having you go door-to-door or spending all your free time in meetings or engaged in “Bible studies”?)

Would a voice from Heaven do it? How about an angelic visitation? Or would restoring a limb to an amputee do it for you?

Invito beneficium non datur!

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP, the only thing I can say is that I have said what I have said and do not retreat from any part of it. Almost all scholars believe the Testimonium Flavianium is not a true renditon of what Josephus wrote, and I'm highly inclined to agree. Still, instead of being a complete interpolation, many scholars view it as altered, not fabricated. That's the whole idea behind the Arabic version, which sounds much more plausible.

Qcmbr: I say this regularly to still believing Mormons, "If real healings existed in the church they would make international news."

This is where we would have to disagree. Many LDS doctors and bishops have witnessed miracles. My bishop helped cast out a devil that possessed a woman who was struggling so hard it took several men to restrain her. "The feeling in the room was of incredible evil," he told me. Her voice had changed to a raw, haggard voice that wasn't hers and, he added, she rose up out of her bed and "literally levitated" above it. When they cast the devil out, she fell from about a foot over her bed and settled into a fitful slumber. There were plenty of witnesses, including the woman's husband. On my mission, a woman invited us in and later excused herself in tears. Her mother explained that she had been kicked in the head by a horse years earlier, and that she frequently had horrible headaches that sometimes lasted hours. My partner administered the blessing and he promised her that she would not have the headaches again. Within minutes, she was laughing as though nothing had happened. A year later, the woman's mother wrote that partner that the headaches had never returned since that night. But these are only two of many happenings. Lorenzo Snow blessed a little girl who had died and told her to "come back." The girl did not stir but remained as she was. Two hours later she began to breathe and she described visiting the spirit world. She said that while in the midst of her experience, she heard the voice of Pres. Snow telling her to come back. She didn't wish to go, but ultimately had to obey the prophet's command. And during Spencer W. Kimball's heart operation, his surgeon had to stop the procedure to give him a blessing. Not only did Kimball respond, but the surgeon said he had the distinct impression that he would one day be the president of the church. At the time he told of it, it seemed like an incredible long shot. President Lee was relatively young, in his 70s, and Kimball much older. Lee also was in perfect health while Kimball was a walking time bomb, having suffered through cancer and a heart condition. BTW, the surgeon later became an apostle and his impression came to pass. Lee soon died suddenly and Kimball became the 13th president of the church.

The anals of our history is replete with miracles, and you know that. And we Mormons aren't the only ones to experience miracles and healings. While we believe we have the apostolic authority of the ancient church, we also know that others, through faith, also can experience them. Read I Stand All Amazed by Elane Durham. Her death and revival were medically documented and yet, she didn't end up making any of the major papers. Hmmm.

The thing is, miracles are a matter of faith. Many non-Mormons witnesses beheld significant numbers of miracles, some which were reported locally in papers. Here are some articles:

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP: First of all its Testimonium Flavianium.

Yes it is, my mistake. It was a copy and paste error. Let me rephrase: Do you have any idea what the Testimonium Flavianium is?

You're the one who said that it contained nothing of the Jesus in the Bible. You were completely incorrect. Now, instead of admitting you made an error, you reply with another criticism. What difference does it make when the word "Christian" appeared? Does that make a difference?

mP:Lots of people back then did miracles, Vespasian supposedly cured a blind man. Considering it doesnt say what marvelous things he did, this is hardly specific in pin pointing an individual.

Look, no one is even reading this thread any more. Your observation, above, is irrelevant. Vespasian was first supreme commander of the military force that destroyed Jerusalem. Then he was emperor. Do you think anyone is going to dispute him? But how about Jesus? Where are those who disputed him at the time?

Also, please show me where I lied, just so I know.

Oh, and if you go to college, try taking some theology courses while you're at it. You seem to be getting all your information from questionable sites.

38

We Are Not Witnesses For JEHOVAH - According to the Bible

by The Searcher in

jehovah gave his worshippers a prophesied new name, (isa.

62:2; acts 11:26) but in j.f.

rutherford's eyes it was not distinctive enough from a marketing point of view, (having restructured "the business" after its severe contraction in the 20s due to his failed 'vision') so he came up with a name which featured the creator's distinctive name, "jehovah's witnesses" - a business strategy employed in those days by kellog and many others.. we now describe them as 'designer names'.. here are the scriptural proofs, but of course, they may count for nothing in some people's eyes because the "glorious ones" in brooklyn say differently!

Cold Steel

WasBlind: [quotes] "Christians are supposed to be witnesses for Jesus not for Jehovah"

What Rutherford and the others didn't know is that Jesus and Jehovah were one and the same. That's why they have the same titles and designations. When man fell, the Father (El, Elyon) appointed his Son, Jehovah, to be the intercessor between him and man. At the conclusion of the Millennium, once all men have been judged and assigned to their respective glories and the earth has been cleansed, glorified and redeemed, Jehovah will present it back to the Father and it will rejoin the Father's dominion of worlds.

Both Jesus and Jehovah will judge the nations, according to the scriptures, but John reports that "the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) Both are also the beginning and the end and the king of kings. Then, when Jesus told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I AM," it was a tacit admission that he was Jehovah, and the Jews acted accordingly by becoming enraged and picking up stones to stone him.

So traditonal Christians win either way!

38

We Are Not Witnesses For JEHOVAH - According to the Bible

by The Searcher in

jehovah gave his worshippers a prophesied new name, (isa.

62:2; acts 11:26) but in j.f.

rutherford's eyes it was not distinctive enough from a marketing point of view, (having restructured "the business" after its severe contraction in the 20s due to his failed 'vision') so he came up with a name which featured the creator's distinctive name, "jehovah's witnesses" - a business strategy employed in those days by kellog and many others.. we now describe them as 'designer names'.. here are the scriptural proofs, but of course, they may count for nothing in some people's eyes because the "glorious ones" in brooklyn say differently!

Cold Steel

Well said, Searcher! The apostles weren't special witnesses of the Father, they were special witnesses of Jesus. And though Jesus gave all glory to the Father, the Father and the Spirit both bore witness of Christ.

Thanks for posting!

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP: You have not quoted the text in full. There’s an entire chapter surrounding that text. you again failed to provide links. Something to hide?

Tell me, mP, do you know what the Testimonium Vlavianum is?

Let me enlighten you. The Testimonium Vlavianum is one passage in Josephus’ Jewish Antiquties. That passage is, and only is, Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63. The entire Testimonium Vlavianum is as follows:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

That’s it. What comes before is not part of the Testimonium Vlavianum and what comes after that is not part of the Testimonium Vlavianum. It is only that one passage, which you maintain is “not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”

Now I quoted that passage in both the standard version and the Arabic version and have had to defend myself from what?

Your ignorance. Remember what I said? Don’t resort to name calling and check your facts. You violated both...again...and now you look like an ass. Yes, there are other chapters in Josephus that have nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible. But they’re not the Testimonium Vlavianum.

You also failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. Nearly all scholars acknowledge the TF to be an insertion.

No, not an insertion. Again, you’re wrong. Just about everyone agrees that the TF is not “entirely genuine,” but the number of people who believe it was a complete fabrication is much smaller. If one reads the Arabic version, which I cited, one will see a much more realistic rendition:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

This version may actually be genuine. Notice Josephus doesn’t call Jesus the Messiah, but reports that “his disciples” reported that he [Jesus] appeared to them after his crucifixion and that “he was perhaps the Messiah.” So he puts that term in their mouths.

You also said I failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. I assume he was the son of Damneus; he certainly has nothing to do with the Testimonium Vlavianum, nor does he figure into any discussion of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Lastly I called you a liar, because you failed to address damning problems with your assertions. I have shown that you have omitted very important facts because they are inconvenient and pose real problems to the credability to your argument. That is being dishonest and a liar.

As I have taken great pains to show you, mP, that you are the one who was incorrect. Again, you didn’t check your facts and you resorted to name calling. Are you now going to be man enough to apologize?

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP, I have no interest in debating you, because you ignore my responses, then later make outlandish claims as to what was said. You know what I think about your arguments that show that 70 cannot become 3 million in 200 years? Nothing. I have no opinion, that’s why I didn’t give one. It doesn’t seem to bother biblical scholars or historians, so I don’t care. It’s not a deal breaker for me. You also accuse me of citing “scriptures and claim[ing] they are talking about Jesus when his name or title are never mentioned.”

You’re speaking, no doubt, of my citation of Isaiah 53 and the last part of chapter 52. This scripture is universally acknowledged by Christian scholars as referring to Jesus, and I wholeheartedly agree. Prophecy is such that one must study it in the context of the prophets themselves. Trying to seriously discuss it with someone who doesn’t even know the basics of prophecy and scriptural exegesis is like discussing astrophysics with a six-year old.

mP: Good too see you do not attempt to quote or link or anything because if anybody reads the text its clear you are lying and wrong. You delibrately only present the first half of the paragraph because the entire chapter is about Jesus the son of Damneus who was a real person according to Josephus. Anyone can read the entire chapter, and see for themselves the Jesus mentioned is never Jesus son of god, and it makes no sense to talk and use his first name with qualification to refer to one character and then slip in a line about Jesus of Nazareth without letting the reader know its a different person. [Emphasis mine.]

Well, this is a wonderful example, on a platter, of what you frequently do. In our discussion on Josephus, you said, and I quote:

“The Testimonium Flavianum is not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”

Actually, it’s entirely about the Jesus of the Bible. But since you have openly accused me of lying, which I’ve never accused you or anyone else on this board of, here, in full, is the Testimonium Vlavianum:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Now how you can say this isn’t about the Jesus of the Bible is beyond me. Even if one believes it was muddled with, well, let’s look at the Arabic version, which is deemed more accurate:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

In short, I’m not going to waste my time going back to previous discussions and showing you to be full of hooey. You think coming in and making accusations will save your complete lack of scholarship. Since I’m assuming you’re probably still in high school, I’ll give you a few tips. First, admit it when you’re wrong, check and recheck your sources, and never resort to name calling as a primary means of defense. In fact, never use it, period, if you can help it.

Smiddy: ...performing so-called miracles is not and should not be the criteria for believing in GOD, didn’t the magic practicing priests of Egypt also perform miracles? Exodus 7...according to the bible that is.

DeWandelaar: have you personally seen him do the miracles? Have you seen him waking the dead? No...it is “history” according to you but “history” is written by people with an agenda.

Well, that’s the issue now, isn’t it? Miracles should NEVER be used as a means of determining the truthfulness of any person or group. On the other hand, the gifts of the Spirit follow them that believe.

I can’t prove the miracles that occurred in our church history any more than we Christians of today can prove the miracles in the days of Christ. But when Muhammad had his visions, and when other messianic claimants other than Jesus had their mystical experiences, how many witnesses were there? None. When Joan of Arc had her visions and heard her voices, how many could testify of it? Zip. And when Ellen G. White had her visions and experiences, how many witnesses could back her claims? Again, zero.

How about Jesus? Well, his apostles saw his miracles and later attested to them. John the Baptist testified of his messiahship, and Peter, James and John saw him on the mount of transfiguration. The apostles testified of Jesus’ death and resurrection and they also witnessed whatever it was Jesus said and did during the 40 days following the resurrection, when he taught them.

In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many witnessed the miracles done in those early days. Each time a major event happened, whether it was the restoration of the two priesthoods or the reception of the vision of the degrees of glory, at least one other person was present who could testify of it. The Book of Mormon plates were seen by three witnesses in addition to Smith. These men saw the gold plates, the sword of Laban, the interpreters and the angel. Additionally, they heard the voice of God bearing witness that it was true and that they would be responsible for the bearing of their testimonies for the rest of their lives. Some people thought Smith deceived them, or hypnotized them somehow, but the Lord, perhaps foreseeing that, allowed eight men to see and handle the plates in a wooded grove. No one but them were present, there was no voice, no angel, no light—just the sound of birds.

So critics who thought that Smith deceived the three had to contend with the eight witnesses who saw nothing that might be considered mystical, and those who claimed Smith made a set of plates out of lead or other material had to then contend with those who saw the angel and heard the voice of God. Either way a critic wished to go, the Lord would put them in check by providing the other way. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

As the church grew and priesthood authority was restored, Smith was commanded to form a quorum of twelve apostles, as the ancient church had. And many of these men then experienced visions of their own and performed many miracles, as one would expect. I’ve spent years studying these miracles—miracles where the people were fed as in the days of Moses, or when their enemies were turned aside by mighty storms that suddenly manifested themselves. In one march led by Joseph, the people began to murmur and complain against the Lord. Joseph rebuked the men, saying, “Many of you think I’m a boy,” but he reminded them of his calling and, in tears, warned them that the destroying angel of the Lord would visit the camp. The men were stunned into silence, and within hours a devastating wave of cholera hit the camp and several died. Two, who later became apostles, said they learned then to bear their burdens in faith, and one of them had to remind the saints of this incident while wending their way to Utah. And it had its desired effect.

Apostle Orson Hyde dedicated the holy land for the return of the Jews and he had a magnificent vision while in his cabin in the ship. “The vision of the Lord, like clouds of light, burst into my view. … The cities of London, Amsterdam, Constantinople and Jerusalem, all appeared in succession before me, and the Spirit said unto me, ‘Here are many of the children of Abraham whom I will gather to the land that I gave to their fathers; and here also is the field of your labors.’” So it wasn’t just Joseph Smith. Other apostles also had great visions and manifestations. In other words, it wasn’t a one-man band.

The significance of all this is that just because people haven’t heard this doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. If you investigate it and say, “Well, I don’t buy it,” at least you can’t say that no one claims to have heard from God in 2,000 years. My own belief is that God is speaking today just as he did anciently, and that he will continue speaking until he returns:

For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed. And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall ago forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.
Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth. Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.
And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious; yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.
Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear: Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; and the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; for they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; and also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—the weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh....

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After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

Comatose: If a true manifestation of himself was made, billions would act. He could positively change the fate of billions. Why wouldn't he want to help the entire earth?

Yes, some would panic; others would get religion for awhile, but when another miracle wasn’t forthcoming, they would fall away until someone else with a bag of tricks showed up.

What you say makes sense on its face, but it doesn’t work in the real world. Human nature is such that the only thing that will permanently change hearts is the Spirit of God. Not all people are like Paul, who had his vision on the road he was on to persecute Christians. There are many who care nothing about religion and wouldn’t obey a missive from God if it were delivered by an angel with a sword of fire. As hard as it may be to believe, many people simply want to be left alone to live life according to their own desires. Again, God will not abrogate free agency, and by revealing himself to the world, he would only seal their condemnation.

Case in point: the return of Jesus. According to Zechariah, when Jesus returns at the conclusion of Armageddon in Jerusalem, the Jews will immediately realize the Messiah’s identity and they will be converted and offer up great lamentation. Many of their fellow Jews will be dead, slain by the beast mentioned by John in Revelation. But many of the enemies of the Jews, the ones who live “round about” Israel and who allied themselves with the beast, will stubbornly resist. Zechariah writes:

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. (Zech. 14:16-20)

These will be the Muslim nations, and despite Jesus’ return in glory, which they will see with their own eyes, many will be so bitter that they will not obey the Lord’s directive to come to Jerusalem and make peace by celebrating the feast of the tabernacles (and the prophet specifically mentions Egypt by name). These remaining people will be guilty of being deceived by the beast, but they will be good, decent people, else they would have been destroyed at the Lord’s coming. Alas, as I said, they also will be stubborn. Acknowledging Muhammad as a false prophet and the beast as being an enemy to God will go against everything they believed and fought for. But the Lord will then visit them with famine, drought and plague until they acknowledge him and go up to Jerusalem.

The scripture doesn’t say it, but I suspect the Jews also will have a difficult time making their own peace with their former enemies. But then, they will be established once and for all in Jerusalem and will have their temple back. And all their expectations of their Messiah saving them also will be fulfilled (and this is one reason their fathers rejected Jesus, because he did not come to save them from the Romans, their current enemies).

Why wouldn’t god manifest himself in a concrete way to us today?

All I can tell you is that he will. John writes: “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” (Rev. 14:6-7)

John also predicted a great earthquake in the last days, then added:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:15-17)

So far from converting, many will attempt to flee from God and his judgment.

Supposedly, Jesus showed miraculous signs. God performed miraculous signs back in Bible times. Can you explain to me why we no longer see such miraculous signs?

Yes, and many miracles were shown in the days of Joseph Smith. The sick were healed, the dead raised, people received visions and revelations and the Lord was with his people. You just don’t know our history. If you PM me, I can get you the details. I think it’s a marvelous story. I think many of you guys are absolutely correct about God and his revelations to mankind. Back in 1967-71 I talked to every pastor, priest, reverend and preacher I could find and I asked them one question: why, when men need it more than at any other time in history, does God not speak to men through apostles and prophets as he did anciently? No one could give me what I thought was an intelligent answer. In September 1968, my father took my family out to a Utah ranch to visit an old war buddy of his. I struck up a friendship with my father’s friend’s son, who had just returned from a Mormon mission, and in 1971 my family joined the church, with the exception of my father, a Southern Baptist. He read some anti-Mormon stuff, but even so, years later, he also was baptized.

My point is that I think your question is perfectly natural. Most people are just simply unaware of what’s happened in our day. I study it relentlessly and am still impressed by it.

mP: What if there was a troll who claims the exodus is true, and shows several scriptures supposedly holding prophecies about Jesus and then he is shown to be incorrect and then they quit because they cant handle the truth. What if that person was you?

Then logic would have ceased to exist. I’ve noticed, mP, that your primary mode of answering arguments isn’t through scholarly assessments or a well thought out appeal to history, theology, ancient scriptures, anthropology or even your whacked out and inconsistent personal philosophy. What do you do? You resort to petty name calling. First you refer to LDS sacred vestments as “magic underwear.” When that wore thin, you began slinging around the word “cult” when it was apparent that you knew nothing about either the LDS church or cults. Now you’re bandying about the word “troll.” But what have you actually said?

Nothing at all.

I’m willing to let readers decide who’s the troll here. As for me, I find it difficult to argue with someone who is uneducated, uninformed and, frankly, in my view, not too bright. If your memory is so short that you forgot that you argued that a Josephus passage referred to someone else named Jesus—not the one Christians revere, but to false messiahs of the same name—and you were totally WRONG, then no one can argue with you. So kindly crawl back under your bridge and give it a rest unless you have something substantive to say, other than empty pontifications.